Interview with Sydney and Chris Jay

June 18, 2011
Vancouver

Sydney and Chris Jay, long-term Buddhist practitioners, are a married couple from the United States, who decided in 2002 to participate in a traditional three-year retreat under the guidance of Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche. The retreat took place at Vajradhara Gonpa in New South Wales (Australia) and, according to Tibetan Buddhist tradition, lasted three years, three months and three days. According to individually set retreat rules and boundaries, family contact was strictly regulated and shopping, novels, television and any other distractions of the digital age were prohibited.

Sydney and Chris speak openly about the benefits, as well as the challenges of being in a closed three-year retreat situation, with family as well as jobs in the world outside the border of Vajradhara Gonpa.

GV: So you have been together on a three-year retreat in Australia? When was that?

Sydney: Actually the retreat started in January 2005 and lasted until April 2008.

GV: How did this idea come up? How did you come to the point where you said: ‘Yes, we are doing it’?

Sydney: We met some people from Canada, who had done a three-year retreat. I didn’t even know that it was part of the tradition in Tibetan Buddhism. However I was very intrigued and started asking a lot of questions.
This was way back in 1998. I remember thinking, ‘Oh I could never do that.’ But I was curious and the seed was planted.
In 2002 we went to Australia, because Rinpoche was there doing a Ngöndro retreat. We heard that Rinpoche was planning to do a traditional three-year retreat and so I kind of sat there and simmered with thoughts of this … I then went to Chris and said “I think we should do this retreat.”

Chris: I couldn’t believe it when Sydney said, “Let’s do the retreat.” I thought, that there was a snowflakes in hell chance that I’d ever be able to interest her in doing that.
And it was her idea!
When we walked into Rinpoche’s house, I was sure he knew, what we were going to ask. He had this big grin on his face and when we said “Okay, Rinpoche, we want to do the three-year retreat.” Rinpoche replied,” GOOD! You are the first ones. You are in!”

GV: But this was not your first retreat?

Chris: No. We had done some retreats of one month, two months or three months back in the early 2000s. However we have never done a really long retreat. The longest we had ever done was for three months.

GV: For people with a western cultural background, how would you describe the importance and the benefit of a retreat?

Sydney: I don’t think there are enough words or the right kind of words to describe the benefit. You start your retreat the moment you say, I am going to do it. A woman who had just come out from a retreat told me, that it’s like the “you”dies. It’s a process. That “you”before you made the decision is very different from the “you” that’s moving forward. It’s this process of discovering who this person is that’s getting ready to go into retreat and then who this person is during the retreat. That’s one of the benefit’s in doing a three-year retreat. Also when you do a three-year retreat, you have the structure of the whole place, the structure of your room, the structure of everybody else there doing the same thing, and it’s a tremendous benefit to live in that kind of atmosphere.

GV: For someone who is 25 years old reading this may scare them. Because they think, this time I could go surfing on a nice island or have parties……

Chris: There is a kind of karmic connection aspect to this. When you hear the words three-year retreat or when you meet a three-year retreatant and talk about it, some people think that, “Oh gosh, I could be surfing, I could be sailing through the Greek islands” . However other people could be intrigued to the point where they see that there actually is a path where they could go as deeply as possible and as quickly as possible in this life. Also there is a timeliness to it, you know. We couldn’t do it until we were a bit older due to issues of money, children, so on and so on.

Sydney: But for everybody who goes in – no matter what the time in their life – something gets sacrificed. For me when I went in, I had one grandchild and that was a cause for a lot of my pain during the initial stages . When I talked to Rinpoche about this he said: “ Don’t worry, when you are in retreat, within six months the way you feel about that baby, you will feel about all sentient beings.” And I was like, Super! It is a beautiful thought and it really motivated me. As a result it kind of happened and I do feel differently about people. Probably not the same heart passion that I feel for my family but I do feel more open, more caring and not quite so willing to smash people with my temper.

Chris: At the end of the retreat we did a Drubchen and Rinpoche invited the media. During an interview they asked Rinpoche about the purpose of this kind of retreat. Rinpoche answered, “ Until this retreat the students, these practitioners have been dependent on the outer guru and the purpose of this retreat is that they can find their inner guru. Their inner guru will be what teaches them from now on. In the context of the guru that’s what this kind of retreat is about.”

GV: What about the boundaries that are set? Was there for instance , Skype?

Sydney: No Skype. However Rinpoche was so kind with our group. If our retreat master had decided it, it would have been nothing. But many of us had kids and some went in without their partners or spouses. Two months before the retreat started Rinpoche gave permission to have a phone. His directions were, keep it to a minimum. So we could talk, like I talked to my kids back here in the US. Nobody from the outside could come in to where we were except the doctor and the guys who mow the lawn etc. There was a house where people could go if they had visitors so retreatants who lived in Australia could have their families come and visit for very short periods of time.

Chris: I wanted stricter boundaries than Sydney did. Stricter in terms of who I could call because I didn’t want to call family members except for my mother who was 84 years of age. She was really sad when I left because she thought that she would never see me again. I wrote this in my retreat rules which are like a contract between Rinpoche and yourself. I wrote that I could call my mother every three weeks – basically to find out two things: 1) how is she doing and 2) how Tiger Woods was doing [laughs].

GV: Apart from issues with setting up the boundary and the different characters were there any other challenges directly related to practice?

Sydney: The initial practice everybody does, the Ngondro, where we had to do 100.000 prostrations was what probably gave me the most confidence in myself as a practitioner. Having the commitment of doing 400 times Refuge, 400 times Bodhicitta and 400 hundred-syllable mantras and so on within a certain amount of time, whenever you got behind, you would have to catch up. So you would never be lazy because you knew that you had to keep up. Being able to do that [keeping the commitment] gave me confidence in myself as a practitioner. But that’s only the part of the retreat where you have to count. When we moved to practices where we didn’t count it got really difficult. Settling in, doing the sadhana and doing visualization without the support of counting…..

Chris: At this point one’s neuroses are in full display: Am I doing it? Am I not doing it? oh my god I can’t do it because I am so stupid. Any kind of neurosis that one has comes right up in front of our minds. We all have these kinds of things, but when the neuroses come up we can easily project them onto other people and say ‘It’s their fault, it’s not me “ So there was a lot of self-discovery in the midst of doing Vajrayana practice. Also, a big learning for me in this retreat was to keep my mouth shut. We humans – that is, me – get in trouble with our mouths. To learn that, to see myself doing it while my mouth was open, and to develop some awareness around keeping it shut was really a great learning for me.

GV: Was there a lot of communication going on between the retreatants?

Chris: There was a main kitchen where a lot of people would get together and eat, but there were other people in cabins that would have their own kitchen. It was a very amorphous changeable situation.

GV: Was it helpful for the retreat being together as a couple rather doing it individually?

Sydney: I think for me it was really helpful because Chris is a very committed and dedicated practitioner. He was a real source of inspiration for me because I am much more emotional. I could spend a lot of time missing my children and my grandchildren and be very tearful.
I had three deaths in my family fairly quickly together from 1994 through 1997 including the death of my son (Chris’s stepson). Chris was incredibly important during that time. He took very good care of me. The most powerful learning in terms of the practice and our relationship came during the retreat because I had to take care of that stuff myself and so we learned that it is my pain, my loss just as he had his own pain and loss. Being in the retreat and having that loss came up during practice again and again–It was really healing not only for me personally but in terms of our relationship and the dynamics of that relationship.

Chris: Some people would come by and say ‘You two are so lucky that you have each other and you don’t have to go through this alone’ and it’s true (Sydney agrees). It was wonderful to be there as a couple, but I wondered if we were missing anything by being a couple… however at the end of the day I doubt if it makes any difference. I found myself by the end of the retreat appreciating how hard it must have been to go through this without a partner. But of course, as we all know, having a partner is not all that easy, particularly when the neuroses start coming up….

GV: What do you think is the essence of a retreat?

Sydney: Of course with the practice you start to become a practitioner and in the three years that’s one of the things you learn. Another thing is commitment. For me this was the biggest thing. Once I decided to go that was it and no more questions about getting up at 3:30 in the morning – that decision was already made because it was part of the commitment.

Chris: Two things. First of all to be exposed for who I am as opposed to what I think I am as a practitioner. Because it is so easy to walk in with a certain conceit about “Oh, I’m a great practitioner because I have been doing Ngondro for ten years”. But when one’s neuroses start coming up, you realise the alarming difference between who you think you are and what actually is. It’s stunning, and for me, this was really the beginning of the Path. Nowhere else can we learn this because everywhere else we get to be distracted by entertainment, or even worse, praised for being a practitioner. But here there’s none of that. You have to sit there, look at it and it can be very painful. The second thing is that as students of Rinpoche we are kind of like puppy dogs. We need our master, we wag our tail, we put our ears back and say please Rinpoche pay attention to me. To me, one essence of retreat is about moving from away that stance to begin awakening one’s own inner Guru. And, as Rinpoche told us, essentially, a 3-year retreat is a good start.

By Douglas Mills

Arising, abiding and cessation.
Before, during, after.
What, me do a three year retreat ?
How could I possibly do a three year retreat ?
How the hell can I stay in this three year retreat ?
When is this retreat ever gonna end ? 
After I chuck a wobbler and run screaming out of the retreat boundary, can I come back ?
Oh, why, why didn’t I stay in retreat ? How can I get back into another three year retreat ?
Did a retreat actually unfold and I just happened to be there ?

Once a man, who was rumoured to have done some retreat, received the following email.

We are petitioning all retreatants to help us with our planning stage of the next retreat, blah, blah and so on and so forth. Please answer the questions authentically and return a.s.a.p. Otherwise, there will be severe and I mean severe, consequences.

Did you enjoy your retreat ?
Did you feel your retreat experience was worthwhile and verifiable ?
Can you explain the difference between Shamatha, Vipashyana and the coalescence of Shamatha and Vipashyana ?
If not, why not ?
Have you attained the first Bhumi yet ?
Can you remember why you did the retreat ?
How many fingers are there on your right hand ?
Can you find your left foot ?
Do you find yourself accidently revelling in the state where there is nothing left needing to be done ?
Who is the hero and who the anti hero in the book, ‘Winnie the Pooh does Big Ears’ ?
Please explain the difference between going to club med, being cast into a dark dungeon and forced to listen to Abba, be admitted into a mental hospital, being consigned to death row and your own retreat experience ?
Can you prove you would have done something more worthwhile with your life if you didn’t do retreat ?
Was doing retreat the most amazing, ineffable, paradoxical event of your entire life ?
Have you heard the joke about the retreat that started with twenty people and finished with twenty two ?
Which is your favourite of the following Buddhist pop tunes, compulsory listening on your retreat ?
Moov Dat Flor Skin Mar Far, subtitled Plaintive supplication to have my rug pulled,
Waz Alweighs Kry Inma Slip, subtitled Genuine heart of sadness blues,
Mar Dumb Fah Koola Yuz Rana Way subtitled My idiot compassion smells better than your definite emergence from samsara or Guru Smuru Ar Juz Wana Du Yu, subtitled Sexual Projection Detection ?
When you find yourself plummeting into the depths of Vajra Hell, do you have irreversible, inconvertible faith and devotion that your Guru will effortlessly reach down and pluck you out with his little finger ?

Which of the following books on the compulsory reading list did you find most helpful in retreat ?
Vajradhara is actually a woman by Lama Feminus Extremus, 
Vajravarahi ain’t got nothing on me by Lama Bhagus Portcullis Fangus, 
Tantra don’t have nothing to do with sex by Lama Organus Maximus or
How to get recognised as a reincarnate Tulku by Lama Penus Insignificus Tiewanus.
Do you find these questions boring ?
Answer Yes, No or Other.
Note : Please do not get someone else to fill in these questions for you.

Once there was a man who aspired to do three year retreat. He tentatively made some enquiries with a man who had done more than five years. ‘Oh, it took me more than five years to come back to earth, to feel my feet solidly on the ground again, you know what I mean. So if you are thinking about doing it, then think well on it, my friend.’
Later, the man requested a divination from his Guru as to whether he should do a particular retreat, starting at a particular time, in a particular location. ‘ If you don’t do this now, perhaps the interdependent causes and conditions will not arise again in this lifetime.’
 
Choice. There is no choice.

Choice is an effervescent, nebulous matrix of apparent possibilities.

Once there was a man who received advice from all his Gurus on how he should readjust into the world after a three year retreat. The student listened attentively to their instructions and tried his best to apply them in a simple, real way. However he found himself stumbling around in the world again, unable to do even simple stuff like speak, without really preparing what was gonna come out of his mouth. He walked into walls and kept trying to open doors the wrong way. He also noticed that the labelling of subject and object had become a real chore for him. Bit of a worry, he thought, ever so slowly. So one day he went to see his best friend, an eminently compassionate man, who, as it turned out, had had a particularly eventful life and had ended up doing serious hard time in gaol. His captors had taken a real dislike to his free spirit so they rewarded him with two thirty day stints in solitary confinement back to back, sixty days total sensory deprivation, no light and so forth. Now as you may imagine, this experience had left an indelible impression on the man. On listening to the perplexed consternations of the Buddhist retreatant on matters such as an inability to function in the world stemming from a basic lack of self confidence and other juicy morsels of self indulgence, he wryly smiled and replied. ‘ What did I do to cope, you ask ? Well, I simply retaught myself how to perceive the world and its’ objects. It took a while, you know. You get the hang of it after a while.’

One Guru, when asked what was the benefit of doing three year retreat answered the question by saying,
 ‘Well, if I ever get put in gaol, at least I will know what to do.’ Good advice? No, great advice.

Once there was a man, rumoured to have done a three year retreat, who was asked by his Guru to ask another man, also rumoured to have done a three year retreat, whether he had actually done said retreat. The questioned man was indignant and said that of course he had. He then asked the questioner, ‘ Did you do a three year retreat ?’

This prompts the enquirer with such leading questions as, ‘ Why is it that some, rumoured to have done a three year retreat, never mention it, hide it, deny it and change the subject at the drop of a hat, if given the chance ?

Why is it that others wear it like a Victoria Cross on their carefully polished Buddhist chest of medals and pull rank at the first opportunity they have in dubious social situations where they kinda look quasi compassionately at others and smirk knowingly in a way that makes you want to put your fingers down your throat and be sick.

Once there was a man who thought that he had really made a total mess of his three year retreat and needed to do another one as soon as possible. This time, of course, it would be different and he would do it ‘properly’. 
He approached another man for whom he had so much respect and devotion who had been placed in his three year retreat in an advisory capacity after doing his own retreat in a far, distant land. This man was so humble, yet overflowed with an authentic realisation of the dharma that manifested as an awesome devotion to his Guru. He was so kind, generous and humorous that the retreatant just had to ask him about his experiences in that other remote realm. ‘Oh, actually, sometimes it seems like I never even did a retreat. It all seems so dream like now.’

Once, a Guru came to visit a three year retreat one year after it had started. He said to the retreatant, ‘ Don’t worry, I have just decided to put you into retreat for life.’ The retreatant went into an extreme panic attack response so he could no longer formulate any kind of pathetic, wining questions or requests.

The next year the Guru returned to cheer up the retreatant by changing the formulation slightly,
’Don’t worry, now I have decided you only need do another five years of retreat after you have completed this one.’
The retreatant was overjoyed and returned to his meditations, but after he had thought about this so called, great offer a little bit, his mind continuum took another unforseen pathway resulting in unbounded confusion.

The final year of the retreat, the Guru returned, smiling and joking.
’ No, I never said anything about you doing more retreat, you need to go out into the world and metabolise what you have been aspiring to practice.’ ‘But Rinpoche,’ the student retorted. ‘ I would really like to stay on here and do some more retreat. I finally think I have had a glimpse of something meaningful and maybe I could make my life fruitful.’
’ Get in the car, you are leaving now.’

Once there was a man who found his guru yoga practice in the lyrics of a country song.
‘Out on this road that lies before me now, there are some turns where I will spin,
I only hope your love will find me there and hold me, until I gain control again.

‘
This was revealed from its’ place of concealment within the widget of an imported can of Guinness 
by the treasure revealer Kookaburra Lingpa.
Reading this, you will know if your bullshit detector is turned on. Check out :  arwannabeatulku@poohseawipt.org
 
UNSEALED AS MEANINGLESS   UNSEALED AS SUPERFICIAL  UNSEALED AS PUBLIC    SLARNCHA
 
Translated from the Aramaic by the Reverend Dubious Snoteater.

Disclaimer : 
Gentle Voice completely disavows any knowledge of any of the events referred to in this article and strongly recommends that the reader take the whole thing like a pinch of salt.
 All events are fictional and any resemblance of the characters mentioned herein to any Guru or disciple living or dead is purely an adventitious defilement.

One of the many faces of Douglas Mills Photo Jasmine Singh